The Ultimate longe range Condor
Hi guys
I have become obsessed with improving the Condor for long range shooting. Copping too much flak from my powder burning mates and wanna show them want a condor can do.
Here’s the thing.. i just did a little bit of reaserch on here and came up with some interesting idea’s. The problem with an airgun is the pellets, they are just not good enough for long range.. 100+ yds. I had the idea of machining up a .17 centrefire barell with the right twist for my condor to shoot 25gr .17 bullets. These have a BC of .1 as apposed to a Eun jin .22 at .35. Heres the interesting bit.. using chairgun i plotted some ballastics between the 2. here’s my results below.
.22 Eun jin 28gr BC .35 zero 50yds
.17 bullet 25Gr BC .1 zero 50yds
Drop retaining velocity retained energy
@25yds
.17 -.32″ 969 FPS 52 FP
.22 -.15″ 915 FPS 52 FP
@50yds
.17 .0″ 941 FPS 49 FP
.22 .0″ 836 FPS 43 FP
@100yds
.17 -6.84″ 882 FPS 43 FP
.22 -9.57″ 700 FPS 30 FP
@150yds
.17 -24.6″ 829 FPS 38 FP
.22 -36.98″ 585 FPS 21 FP
@200yds
.17 -58.86″ 779 FPS 33 FP
.22 -87.76″ 490 FPS 14.9 FP
now lets change things a little, and concentrate on .17 bullet.
.17 25gr bullet MV 1100 FPS zero 60 yds muzzle energy 67 FP
@25 yds -.37″ 1065 FPS 63 FP
@50 yds .33″ 1032 FPS 59 FP
@100 yds -4.6″ 970 FPS 52 FP
@150 yds -27.72″ 889 FPS 43 FP
@200 yds -42.70″ 856 FPS 40 FP
@250 yds -80.16″ 805 FPS 35.98 FP
I think these figures speak for themselves ! 😯
I am determined to make this a reality and do some real world testing. Forget about exotic gases and the like, a standard condor with a replacement .17 centrefie barrel will give the 1100 FPS. All i need is a twist rate that would stabilize the bullet, Anyone have any idea’s?
Then of course you could go the next step and use a bloodnog or Talontune’s valve and mod hammer weights etc etc. I believe a 1400FPS Muzzle Velocity is achievable, and by using .17 bullets they will stabalize through the sound barrier and back.
Only problem ive found in .177 barrel is tank dump. I machined a .177 airgun barrell 18″ to fit my condor but on full power PW 12 the vavle dumps all the air, i have even seated the pellets deep into the barrel and still the problem persists. Any idea’s on how to stop this happening? It will surely be the same problem with .17 bullets as well. I think i read the valve spring needs to be stiffened?
Any idea’s??
All Replies
thanks heaps Chad !
I think i might buy the set up ! just gotta email about delivery to Australia. It depends on cost of lead wire and how many i can get for each qauntity, but the shape of the air bullet looks exactly like the FMG but longer. I think you have hit the jackpot in regards air bullets !
I just hope he was exagerating on the one year backlog !
a nice 35gr air bullet in .22 that can handle supersonic velocity’s would be the ultimate. You get an accurate pellet at 1200 FPS and it has retained energy far exeding a pellet. Great part of it all is if you need to plink pidgeons outta tree’s or similiar use kodiaks or similiar, but when hunting ground fur bearing animals at ranges of 50 to 100 yds, man an air bullet would be devastating, it would have at 100 yds, close to the energy a kodiak has at 50 yards. Would be even better if we could get a hollow point !
Youve got me excited mate, thanks heaps !
Muzza, it looks like our paths are running parallel. I just stumbled over this thread, but have been doing some research into making my own pellets, rather, air bullets. I found that there’s nothing new under the sun, and we’re certainly not the first, or one hundred and first, to consider making our own. I learned a TON by perusing the Corbins website. In particular, check this link. http://www.corbins.com/pellets.htm
I asked about what would be needed for a turn-key swaging set-up, using my Dillon 650 press to drive everything. Here’s what Mr. Corbin’s reply was…
A dillon 650 (or any other reloading press) really isn’t suitable or ideal for swaging. The best tool for swaging pellets would be the CSP-1 S-Press and probably the LSWC-1-S swage die.
We do make the DDS-1-SC dual diameter die, but I have found that it is not necessarily any better in spite of the theory that it could be, than a straight sided pellet which is easier to make anyway (and cheaper to build).
I’ve made this equipment for international competitors in airgun who have said they find a straight sided pellet to be as accurate with less difficulty and time in manufacture.
Here is what I would suggest:
CSP-1 S press…………….. $498
LSWC-1-S 218 diam. cup base (not hollow base) pellet swage die… $179
CSL-2 swage lube… $8
LW-10 lead wire .185 diameter … $35
PCS-1 core cutter for above wire… $69.50
Shipping $38.50
We have a huge demand for this press, and are working on a one year backlog. I will be completing the first wave of presses in 30-45 days. We may have enough to fill additional orders besides those who have been waiting for up to a year for them. If not, we will have a second wave of presses done soon after that.
D.R. Corbin, President
Corbin Mfg & Supply, Inc.
PO Box 2659, 600 Industrial Circle, White City, OR 97503
dave@corbins.com
order on-line at: http://www.SwageDies.com
From the info I’ve gathered on his site (and man, is it packed with it!) swaging is way easier that casting. With a swage, you control the weight of the bullet, very precisely, as well, where a cast bullet depends on the volume of the mould. You need a different mould for each different weight. This was very encouraging until I realized why a traditional reloading press isn’t well suited. If you put the swaging die in a regular press, you have to hold the lead core or slug, by some means, until the ram can squeeze it up into the die above. Gravity works against you. In a proper swaging press, you drop the lead core into the die, raise the ram, and the punch will press the slug DOWN into the die.
When I learned this, and that a proper press costs the same as a new rifle, I started having second thoughts about the whole thing. Obviously, if I were swaging .50BMG, running it upside down may be a little easier, as I’d have a large core to hold onto while i guided it up into the die, but with something as small as an air bullet, I think I’d wanna do it the right way.
On a side note, when I look at the FMG air bullets, I get the strong feeling that they’re using an off-the-shelf swaging system, probably a Corbin, since their bullets all have a “Keith” style profile/ogive.
Hope this is helpful. I haven’t given up the quest. I may yet “invest” in the system, though invest is hardly the word, unless it will eventually pay for itself. The thought occured to me that I may be able to sell some of the left-overs to help defray the costs of my own experimentation, but I’ve already got a full time job and don’t really want another. But if I do put this together, I had the thought that if a fellow TAG member wanted some, all he’d have to do would be to buy the lead wire from Corbin, and I’d swage the spool of it for him for some nominal fee. That’d help everybody, no?
I think also the jacketed bullets would damage the softer steel in a lother walther barrel.
I have read on the forum here that there are FMG air bullets from South Africa, they have a high BC compared to a pellet. I think i will send the pics of what they look like to a custom cast bullet maker here and maybe get a mould made up like the FMG but with a spitzer type point. That should give very good expansion as well as a high BC for retained velocity.
My theory is that the Condor can shoot 40Gr bullets at 1100 FPS with tuning, perhaps even faster. But what use is that power when the ammunition is limited accuracy wise to 1000FPS or under. Thats why a spitzer design will be more aero dynamic and able to fly through the sound barrier like a rifle bullet. Being of cast soft lead, the air bullet wont damage the bore, and designed properly should be a very good expander on small game like rabbits. Air bullets will be substantialy better at retaining velocity. For example an Air bullet of 35Gr and a BC of .1 launched at 1100 FPS will have a whopping 970FPS retained velocity at 100 Yards. There is simply no pellet on the market that can compare to that.
Funny how this project started with Modifying Condors and using exotic gases to achieve high velocity’s to more of a focus on the limitations of current ammunition.
If i can manufacture a decent air bullet made for the airforce guns, would there be any takers?? Anyone interested in buying them?? What weights would be the most popular?? And what diameter would they need to be?? 5.5mm?? with an expanded tail section of say 5.6mm for better sealing? Anyone that has any experience with this stuff, please any advice would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
Cast bullets are proprobably going t work a little better. It would be great to be able to buy across the counter varmit bullets from Hornady, Nosler, Speer, etc, but the jacket material is going t be way too hard to deform to be able to get high velocity.
At least Me thinks!
yeah this project is going to take a little more than just a barrel.
I would like to start with a rifle barrel, and see if the friction in the bore is too high or ok.. Then graduate to vavles and hammers, etc.
I could try a custom bullet mould. I have acces to tons of soft lead, so i’d like to get a spitzer bullet mould then size it to the lother walther barrel. A .20 lead spitzer bullet of 30 GR will have a BC of .2 and be very efficient for retained long range energy. That would mean no need for a new barrel.
I even tried machining plastic sabots for 25gr .17 bullets just to see what would happen. Only managed 830 FPS when the gun was at full power, they should have been over 1000FPS, but the sabot was a little too tight.
That’s all dependend on your valve design coupled with springforce and hammer weight. It’s all a delicate balancing act especially if you want to go hard and fast!
Regards,
Marc
i re checked the chairgun figures, the BC entered for the eun jin was in fact .033.
looking at the BC of bullets it would seem a .20 cal would be a better option.. the 32gr bullet has a BC of .210 and the 40Gr at .275.
Would the .20 cal barrel eliminate any tank dumping? Like what happens with the .177?
If your right Marc the comparison is even worse from a pellet to a bullet.
Looking at Hornady’s web site it lists the 20 GR Vmax at .097 BC and the 25 GR V max at .1 BC.
A big difference from the pellet, and they are not the most efficient bullets, some of the VLD .22 bullets are upto .5 BC.
I had a look last night and most 17HMR barrels are 1-10 twist with the odd 1-9 twist. Being the Velocity is at least halfed wouldnt i need a faster twist rate say 1-7?
If this works, I have a TC contender barrel in 6mm.
Would love to shoot those 55gr Ballistic tip Noslers in an airgun.
First off all. Ballistic coefficient of a EJ pellet is about .033 not .33 but that said.
Your stock condor isn’t going to give you those velocity’s I think.
Here’s a few things you could do.
-Make a new breech with a new 6,5mm hole.
-Machine your barrel accordingly (this creates less dead volume)
-Making the hole in your valve bigger than 4.5mm is pointless as the barrel can’t allow more gas. Maybe a little to flood the dead area from valve to barrel more rapidly thus reducing pressure drop.
-So make a new valve and concentrate on efficient airflow. AKA as unobstructed as possible.
-Increase your fillpressure to say 250Bar.
-Or get a 300bar bottle and make your valve parts accordingly strong!
-Lastly size your rounds. A firearms barrel eats away your velocity by being tight by nature! Isn’t that what we all want in women 8)
As for twistrate I’d guess 1-12 to 1-14 should do the trick
Regards,
Marc
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I’m discouraged by the fact that I pretty much need a stand-alone swaging press to make good use of this thing, and putting $700 into making my own experimental pellets is not my idea of a good time. Under $300 gets my attention, though. But the fact remains that these would be insanely devestating if they’ll shoot accurately. Not to mention being able to customize the weight of your pellet with a couple of turns of a wrench. If FMG can pull off a 50 grain .20 bullet, I know it’ll spin better in a .22 since it’s going to be a shorter, fatter slug. I can’t imagine what sort of twist-rate a guy would need to stabilize that long-ass 50gr .20. I do wonder if that’s not a gimmic just to see how long a slug the die would swage.