February 17, 2008 at 9:34 pm #1554sargonParticipant
I am considering get one on these. I want a 24 inch barrel, best efficiency and as large of shot count as possible.
Which would be the best route to go and why, a Condor with a Talon tank or a Talon SS with a 24 inch barrel? I think I could get the later of the two for about $100 less which could be used for accessories.
MikeFebruary 17, 2008 at 10:10 pm #34154spinjParticipant
Going straight with the Condor would be what would satisfy your requirements. The longer barrel is more efficient in air usage as it can increase velocity with little air usage, unlike with a shorter barrel. Now, I don’t buy into the idea that the Talon tank is more efficient. The newer Condor valves are much better than the older ones. Plus, you can make the more efficient by adjusting the tophat; it’s just a matter of reducing its clearance to the brass base and confirming velocities, consistency, and what have you via a chronograph. I have a Condor SS, and am thinking of getting me another one … another Condor!February 17, 2008 at 10:19 pm #34155sargonParticipant
Thanks for the info. Correct me if I am wrong but wont the Condor tank only give you around 10 full power shots( that is what they advertise) where as the Talon tank would be around 40?
As far as “adjusting the tophat” I wouldn’t have a clue on how to do that?February 17, 2008 at 10:29 pm #34156garytexParticipant
I had good luck getting about 60 shots with lighter (JSP Exacts Jumbo) out of a Condor with the new style valve for long range bird shooting at 850 to 900 fps by starting with a full 3000 lb tank and changing the powerwheel setting through the string to adjust for the velocity curve of the string. My gun seems typical in that I start with a higher powerwheel setting, then reduce it as velocities try to rise through the 2800 psi sweet spot and increase it through the bottom end of the string. I wind up at about 1500 psi. Understanding what is going on by having shot over a chronograph, and also watching pellet strikes vs a ballistic table helps with the powerwheel adjustment through the string. Also having a really good scope dialed in so the focus shows the pellet flight against the sky at the range of the bird helps in understanding where you are in the velocity string progression, and really helps with wind estimation. I luckily had a Leupold 6 X 18 EFR in the safe to put on, and I can see a .22 cal pellet against the sky at 100 yds. Priceless. It is old advice, but so true, buy the best glass you can afford no matter which gun you wind up with. I suspect that you might get a few more shots with a Talon, but you give up some top end power, which can be very soul satisfying. I think you will be thrilled with either, they are wonderful to shoot.February 18, 2008 at 8:16 am #34231spinjParticipantquote sargon:
Adjusting the tophat is easy. Just unscrew the two very tiny Allen/hex screws on the tophat or valve cap on the bottle and then turn the tophat down for lower velocity or up for higher velocity. The thing to keep in mind is that the more clearance the bottom of the tophat has from the base of the bottle, the higher the velocity will be as it will permit a longer travel backwards when it is slammed by the hammer upon a shot. The less travel it has, well, then the lower the velocity will be. Generally, the longer the valve is opened, the more air will be permitted out of the bottle.
garytex, don’t rely on the powerwheel to manage POI. That’s alot of guesswork. Adjusting the tophat and mating its setting to a given power wheel setting is the key to attaining true consistent velocities.February 18, 2008 at 2:05 pm #34244
Well said Spinj, if it was my rig i’d go TSSw/ 24″ barrel. With no modding of the valve you’ll get a good shot count and the 24″ barrel will have you shooting Kodiaks at 925-950fps right where you want to be. With the condor its almost better to have a .25 cal setup as the valve is to powerful for most the .22 pellets on the maket today. Your almost limited to EunJins unless you want to de-tune it which kinda defeats the purpose of getting a condor to begin with. You could get the TSS mod the valve and get the 18″ barrel and achieve the same numbers as a 24″ barrel, even a little higher. That is the route i’d go myself, knowing what i know now. But thats a whole different subject. Depends on if you like long guns the 24″ barrel will hang out 7″ in front of the TSS frame add a shroud and your out to 13″ past the end of frame. Sound issues, as the AF guns are loud as rimfires if not shrouded, then they are near silent. The Talon tank is the way to go for .22 as you have a better selection of pellets to shoot with. Unless you go with a shorter barrel the condor tank is to powerful and has a restrictive shot count. There are ways of getting a 100 shots out of a talon tank at lower velocites. Hard decision, lots of choices, once your in, your always after improvement, its a disease. Either way hit WOK up for a buttplate, you’ll be plenty happy. Tony(Talon Tunes) can help you with any lead dust issues you may have 😉February 19, 2008 at 3:24 am #34320saugus18Participant
You know, the 18″ barrel is getting more of my attention. I’ve come to the realization that with a 24″ I wouldn’t really be able to shoot in my backyard anymore, way to loud, and means even more bucks to quiet it down with decent shroud, and making the gun really long.
So the 18″ barrel still tucks inside the SS frame behind the end cap right? And if it does, is it at least a little quieter than if the barrel was exposed hanging out front of it?
I was originaly thinking of going .25 with a 24″, but if I’m going 18″ I’m thinking of just staying with .22, as I’m not confident the shorter 18″ barrel would push a .25 quite well enough with a stock SS tank/valve.February 19, 2008 at 12:45 pm #34336
My 18″ sticks out past the frame by a 1/2″ or so. I just bought 1″ali tubing and slid it down inside the frame, back to the bushing and cut it 7″ in front of the frame.
A modded valve and 18″ barrel change out will give a guy almost 200fps more velocity, where as just the 24″ barrel will add 150fps. So you can have a shorter rig and more power with a 18″ barrel.February 19, 2008 at 1:57 pm #34339knifemakerParticipant
I’m with BD here! I have a modded valve, and an 18″ Bbl., and couldn’t be happier! Only issue is that even though it is shrouded, it hits the black birds so hard that the hit sounds like a small firecracker. A loud crack. I never knew a hit sounded that way. With the .20, and the 12″ Bbl. it had a sound like thumping a water melon. You definitely knew you had a hit. Now it is almost too loud of a hit. Makes it hard to stay stealthy. Such problems Haaa!!!
MikeFebruary 19, 2008 at 3:39 pm #34354saugus18Participant
OK, the 18″ looks good. Blodisdad… were you able to pop the end cap right back on the 1″ ali tubing you installed, or did you have to fashion a custom one for it? It seems the cap would be to big then to fit in… maybe turning the cap on a lathe to fit back in?
I’m actually thinking of just shipping my gun to Tony for the full tune, I’m having accuracy/consistancy issues, the gun is a ’05, so it might be a good thing to do anyway, and he could shroud it proper with the 18″ installed. Does he do these valve mods? I saw on his site that he disasembles the valve, ports them ect, part of the standard tune, but i’m not sure what modding the valve actually involves, or if that in itself would be considered a mod.February 19, 2008 at 5:01 pm #34367
No you need to fashion something to fit the 1″ OD vs. the 1.25″ OD of the end cap. A 1″ washer epoxied to the end would work. Their are other ends caps available at hardware stores though. I’m using a old ali brech i have just sanding it down to slide in the end of the ali tube. Will be done soon, have other things going on. The valve mod is something you’d have to discuss with Tony, i know i added 100fps to my rig with the 12″ barrel. Then the 18″ barrel adds another 90fps or so.February 19, 2008 at 9:27 pm #34407riffraffParticipantquote knifemaker:
When I first heard Mike complaining about loud impact, I thought he was hearing a sonic crack from going supersonic.
Today I enjoyed my first crow with the .25 caliber, muzzle velocity at 960ish fps, and the impact sounded like a light bulb breaking only a bit louder. It is kind of a fun problem to have, ha-ha.
I think you can get good hunting velocities with any barrel 18″ or longer quite easily. I would lean toward the Condor with the new valve, but only because thats all I have experience with. My first valve was circa 2004, and it sucked. Gun got quite a bit more consistent when I got the new valve.
With a 3000PSI fill, I can get 40 shots in the 950-975 fps range depending on PW setting, and still have 2000PSI left in the tank. Velocity deviation is usually within 12 fps. When its really cold outside it gets mildly worse. Tophat sweetspot for my gun turned out to be .80″.
It seems the velocity range gets a little harder to control below 2000 for my gun, but I can still get another 10 shots before velocities start to vary wildly. All this data was shot with the 24″ .22 caliber barrel.
For what its worth, the exact same valving setup is working very consistently with the 24″ .25 caliber barrel. Not changing anything except barrels, kodiak’s in both calibers shoot around 960fps. I fired 10 shots this morning across the chrony at 958-962fps. It seems the Condor valve is more consistent when you open up the bore.
I haven’t yet fired a full shot string in .25, I have to fix my pump as it quits at 2500PSI now…
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