Springers are not as accurate as PCP….

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  • #2172
    rob3dr
    Participant

    Bull shit.

    I’ll give you that Springers are harder to shoot accurately than PCP, but I wanted to bust this myth once and for all. Springers are inherently accurate. They are consistent, they are just not forgiving. I’m not trying to start anything with anyone, nor am I coming down on anyone, but I often hear folks say that springers are inaccurate.

    Springers can be just as accurate as PCP’s, they just require a bit more finesse. I posted these in a message below, but wanted to repost to a separate message to show that springers can be accurate. You dont necessarily need the best out there, too… granted all these guns that did the groups have been tuned, most by yours truly… but consider the lowly B3. This is a $20 Chinese gun that just needed a little degreasing, a little deburring, and a little love to produce outstanding groups at 20 yards. Many of the following groups are done at 50 yards, some at 30 and 35 yards…. all were done by myself, an average shooter.

    Springers are not as forgiving as PCP. One must learn the gun and practice with it to find the best scope, pellet, and hold technique for each gun. If you have patience enough to do so, you will be rewarded with groups that rival any PCP.

    Beeman Kodiak… monster springer. Considered to be one of the harder to shoot accurately… but it CAN be done.

    TX200HC in .22… easy to get groups like this…

    This is from an R1. I did throw a flier, but added the extra shot just to be sure…

    Webley Patriot in .22… another beast…. tamed with technique…

    The aforementioned R9

    The little R7 at 30 yards..

    R11 at 30…

    HW97 at 30…

    TX200HW in .177 at 50

    HW97 again… out at 35 yards…

    The inexpensive B26… tuned…

    A $19.95 Chinese springer at 20 yards… tuned…

    RWS54 at 30…

    #39320
    revwarnut
    Participant

    What sort of sighting systems did you use on these guns?
    Open sights? 3-9x scope? Larger magnification scopes?

    Revwarnut

    #39321
    rob3dr
    Participant

    Who knows… I change scopes around as often as I change underwear…

    Lets see…

    The Kodiak and Patriot both wear Bushnell Legend 5x15x40…but the group posted from the Patriot was done with a Leapers 3x9x40
    Both TX200’s, as well as the R9 and HW97 all have Simmons 44Mag 6.5x20x44
    The R7 and R1 has a Bushnell Trophy 4x12x40
    The RWS54 has a Leapers 3x9x40
    The B3… I think I had a cheapie Crosman 4×32 on it.
    I had a Leapers 3x9x40 on the R11.. The R11 is not mine, was on loan for a review.

    I’ve experimented with scopes and while higher magnification looks great, I can get the same groups with the scope set at 4-6x. For hunting, I always use 4-6x and never higher.

    I’m not a scope snob. The Legend and Trophy are as high end as I have. I’d love to try an Elite one day, but it’s a bit steep. I’d say Bushnell and Leapers account for most of my scopes I use.

    #39323
    rob3dr
    Participant

    …and just to be clear, this post wasnt pointed at the fellow in the other post mentioning cheap springers not being accurate. I’ll admit that it got me to thinking about doing such a post, but he was clear in saying ‘cheap’ springers… and he’s right.

    Lower end springers are plagued by issues that can lead to inaccuracy. The guns themselves…or at least the barrel…might be accurate, but poor trigger, twang, etc..all lead to a shooter not being able to shoot the gun with desired results. Much, if not all, of this can be cured, but at what expense? If you are into tinkering with springers, then fine… I’ve had cheap Chinese guns and Gamo’s that I’ve worked on with great results…and I’ve had some that blew donkey balls.

    Bottom line, if you are going to go springers, you need to get the right equipment. Dont scrimp on mounts. You dont need stellar glass, but you will need good mounts.

    #39324
    sherrod833
    Participant

    Those are some smokin groups!There are some people who will only buy springers simply because they like the way they shoot.

    #39325
    rob3dr
    Participant

    I like to tune them. I love to feel a good tuned springer…. now… I have to clarify here. There is NOTHING like a professionally tuned springer. Paul Watts, Ed K, and others are the Pro’s…

    I only degrease, deburr, and install a tune kit… so in that sense, I cannot say I ‘tune’ them, but rather install a tune kit in them. But…I enjoy it and I enjoy taking a twangy springer and turning it into a nice shooter. I probably shoot my springers 10-1 more often than PCP… but I have to admit, when hunting, I prefer a PCP.

    #39328
    revwarnut
    Participant

    Rob3dr.
    Thanks for that input on the springers and the scopes used.
    I am new to airgunning and still learning the fine points of my “cheapo” Gamo Big Cat, which thankfully has a Rich from Mich. tune in it, and now a newly installed GRT3 trigger that I jut put into it or it would likely be disappointing. It shoots much better now with the GRT3 than it did even with the Rich trigger insert, which I am sure improved the Gamo factory setup for it. (I bought it used for $80.00 with the Rich tune already done, so I can’t compare it to the factory trigger)
    I am used to shooting .22LR rifle, a 30-30 Marlin and my (also “cheapo”) .45 cal CVA caplock blackpowder “Kentucky” rifle, and they all shoot well, but this springer I am just starting to get used to how it shoots.
    Now to just be consitant with it enough to close my groups up a bit.
    I can now finally shoot into the bottom ends of soda cans with some regularity at 30yds with it, so I am fairly happy with that, but would rather it match my .22LR at quarter sized holes!

    Ah well… practice, practice practice… I guess I will get there sooner or later. I learned to shoot well with the CVA and shooting blackpowder with open sites seems to require much the same patience as with a springer. There is a very small delay in shooting blackpowder long-guns that you have to be aware of, and from a standing position, I can hit 3″ groups at 30 yards with the CVA with the German silver blade front sights I put on it. That made all the difference in hitting with that thing. The old iron sights blocked the targets at that range.

    For the Gamo, I think I could improve greatly with a better scope. I am thinking of a 3-9×40 or 3-9×50 Leapers. Right now the Gamo sports a Gamo 4×32 which is not very good glass.
    I do have a Banner 3-9×40 that is not being used however. Do you think it would hold up to the Gamo?

    The Elite 3200 3-9×40 is a really nice scope, that is what is on my 30-30 Marlin lever action and best of all, I got it at Wallymart when I just happened to look into the clearance case and saw a boxless scope marked as a Banner for $89.00 on clearance. When I asked to look at it and I saw that it was actually an Elite 3200, I whipped out my credit card and took that sucker home! My .22lr got the Trophy 3-9×40 that was on my Marlin, and the Banner that was on the .22 now sits all alone in a box just waiting for a call to duty again. I would love to use it on my Gamo, but fear destroying it. I hear that the Leapers scopes hold up well to springers though.

    Thanks again for the input on springers Rob3dr.
    I had been hoping I might see you discuss your methods for springer shooting as I have seen previous posts of yours where you dispute the thought that springers can’t be shot well.

    #39330
    shrpshotr28
    Participant

    Oops, never meant to imply the guns (springers) themselves are innacurate so much as to say that they are MUCH HARDER TO SHOOT ACCURATELY. So much so that many people get discouraged with them before learning to shoot them. In fact, until someone sells a regulator for our talons/condors, a GOOD springer should be more accurate over the course of a long shot string. Just don’t know many people that have the patience to learn to shoot a springer that well.

    I encourage new shooters every chance I get and guests see my guns and EXPECT me to be able to shoot. Bottle caps at 25 yd? yeah, they think that’s cool (yes I could make that shot with a springer too) but more impressive to them is I sit them down with the bipod extended and let THEM shoot at and hit the same targets I was shooting at; and they want to shoot more. I could never do that with a springer.

    Good shootin Rob.

    #39331
    rob3dr
    Participant

    I do fuss about Gamo with their marketing, but in all fairness, Gamo guns can be good guns. Rich in Mich does great work on the Gamo’s and the fact that yours has a kit in it certainly helps it out.

    I’ve seen some folks bash Gamo on their quality and such, and I suppose I’ve joined in as well, but truth be told, the quality is just about right with the price point on them…. I have a Shadow that I’ve tuned with a Rich kit and it does well…no complaints on it at all.

    Far as technique goes, I’ll try to explain my bench technique for springers….

    offhand, you are on your own..haha!

    Benching springers…

    I use a sandbag filled with beans. I try to pack it tightly do that as little of the bag contacts the gun as possible. I dont hold the forearm at all and just rest the gun about 2-3 inches from the trigger guard on the bag. Of course, I use a really loose hold, except for the Kodiak which I found prefers a bit tighter hold for best results.
    If I am trying really hard for groups or have a particularly picky gun, I’ll use a bit of the cloth material that comes packaged for cleaning scopes…a lint free cloth and fold it once and lay under the gun to allow it to slide naturally on the bag. I’ve heard of folks resting the gun on their hand on the bag, but this has never worked well for me.

    I dont ‘squeeze’ the trigger, but rather I pull as straight back as possible on it. I also dont grab the pistol grip, wrapping around with my thumb, but rather I just lay my thumb up straight on the top of the pistol grip. I almost use my entire arm moving backward to keep from squeezing the trigger. If you find your groups shifting to the right (you’ll notice some of my fliers are off to the right), this is due to trigger pull, in my experience. (this assuming you are a right handed shooter).

    Aside from that, pellet selection is crucial. In my Shadow, I cannot group Premiers and other pellets, but have good luck out of JSB Express pellets…not Exacts, but Express.

    This is not unique to the lower end guns either. My HW97LK will only shoot two types of pellets accurately. RWS Hollow Points (of all things) and Beeman FTS. Anything else I try to feed it, it just will not group.

    Some of the really picky springers will shift POI from benched to offhand, but I’ve found that installing a tune kit eliminates much of this so if your experience is with a tuned gun, you may not have noticed it.

    The Banners are supposed to be springer rated, but if I recall correctly, the 3x9x40 does not have an adjustable AO and the parallax is set at 100 yards. You can manually adjust the parallax, but it may not hold. If you want to try it, I can tell you how to manually adjust parallax on it… easy to do. Since your gun has been tuned, the harshness would be greatly minimized and that scope *should* hold up fine on it. I’ve never had an issue with Banners on any of my guns…. Leapers is a good choice and the 3x9x40 is reasonably priced.

    I’m not as familiar with the Big Cat, but it appears to be a Shadow derivative? If so, it will be a bit lightweight… another trick would be to add a bit of weight in the buttstock on it, just a few ounces of lead weight can make all the difference in the world on a springer with a synthetic stock. May want to give it a go. I’d try 3 ounces of weight and see if that makes a difference. All depends on how anal you want to be with it, but I can tell you that gun should be doing pretty well for you out to 30 yards. I was able to get the following group out of my Shadow after I put in the Rich in Mich kit. Before that, I coudlnt do near as good….

    and here is a typical group using Premiers… this gun just dont like them…

    The Big Cat might like the Express pellets just fine. Shoot me a PM and I can send you some out to try in it if you want.

    Hope this helps.

    #39332
    rob3dr
    Participant
    quote shrpshotr28:

    Oops, never meant to imply the guns (springers) themselves are innacurate so much as to say that they are MUCH HARDER TO SHOOT ACCURATELY. So much so that many people get discouraged with them before learning to shoot them. In fact, until someone sells a regulator for our talons/condors, a GOOD springer should be more accurate over the course of a long shot string. Just don’t know many people that have the patience to learn to shoot a springer that well.

    I encourage new shooters every chance I get and guests see my guns and EXPECT me to be able to shoot. Bottle caps at 25 yd? yeah, they think that’s cool (yes I could make that shot with a springer too) but more impressive to them is I sit them down with the bipod extended and let THEM shoot at and hit the same targets I was shooting at; and they want to shoot more. I could never do that with a springer.

    Good shootin Rob.

    and you are correct! They are harder to shoot accurately… Glad to see you didnt take my post as a hit against you 😯 Wasnt my intention! 🙂

    #39335
    bikincrazy52
    Participant

    Tell me what you think about this.

    I have a shadow that has NO tunes at all, and it grouped OK at 20 yards. Something like a one inch group, but ONLY with iron sights.

    I put a BSA 2-7×32 scope on it, and I got a 6 inch group. Same pellets, same hold. The pellets would just fly all over the damn place.

    I then put a leapers 3-9×40 on it, with the same outcome. Just to make sure I wasn’t insane, I took off the scope, and proceeded to get a 1.5 inch group at 20 yards with open sights. I know a 1.5 inch group isn’t that good, but its a heck of a lot better than 6″

    What the heck am I doing wrong?!

    I am adding this as an edit.

    To make sure the scope were not broken, I put the BSA on my talon and got a .5 inch group at 20 yards. So it can’t be the scope.

    #39338
    revwarnut
    Participant

    THanks for the tips!
    I will try adding some weight to the stock and see what that does.
    Mine shoots the Premiers better than your Shadow does and they seem to have essentially the same powerplant. It will keep them in the bottom of a soda can at least.
    I’ll see if I can get the Expresses locally as I will likely shoot up quite a few. Thanks for the offer though. I already went through a tin of 500 Premier hollow points. Will try the pointed ones next. and some RWS pointed that were sent with the gun, with some more Premiers. Original owner said they worked well in it. Now that I have the GRT3 trigger on I need to retest my groups.

    I am pretty certain that much of the problem is my own and not so much the gun or pellets, but no doubt they make a difference.

    #39339
    riffraff
    Participant
    quote bikincrazy52:

    Tell me what you think about this.

    I have a shadow that has NO tunes at all, and it grouped OK at 20 yards. Something like a one inch group, but ONLY with iron sights.

    I put a BSA 2-7×32 scope on it, and I got a 6 inch group. Same pellets, same hold. The pellets would just fly all over the damn place.

    I then put a leapers 3-9×40 on it, with the same outcome. Just to make sure I wasn’t insane, I took off the scope, and proceeded to get a 1.5 inch group at 20 yards with open sights. I know a 1.5 inch group isn’t that good, but its a heck of a lot better than 6″

    What the heck am I doing wrong?!

    I am adding this as an edit.

    To make sure the scope were not broken, I put the BSA on my talon and got a .5 inch group at 20 yards. So it can’t be the scope.

    If the scope is ok, and you can shoot it well with sights, its the scope mount that isnt working. I had similar experience years ago with my FWB124, so for the first 10 years I owned it I used the iron sights.

    When my eyes got bad enough I tried the scope again, but this time used a new mount. Viola! Best shooting the rifle ever did. I used to shoot aspirin with it at 25 yards. Its now semi-retired, needs a new piston seal.

    #39340
    bikincrazy52
    Participant

    Well I have got a new bushnell scope and mount coming soon, I will put them on and and see if that works.

    #39341
    photo22
    Participant

    Thanks Rob for putting this in the light. I think spring guns will always help one be a better shooter. 8)

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