March 3, 2008 at 9:51 pm #1675
Well how hard can it be to make a semi auto 😯 ….let me give you a clue …….”F****n hard” 😯 . Ive been reading lots again , going deep under cover on the Russian sites to gain info ( at much risk to myself and my pet cat “Millie”) . Apart from FX airguns Monsoon ( and Daystate,s never to be released electronic controled full auto ) the Russians seam to be the only ones who have managed to make a semi auto work!. Ive only seen two manage it Dudis and Victor620 , with both looking to market their guns .
. If im going to have a blow back operation of the hammer , there needs to be an understanding of spring rates and timing of the components (which i dont have yet lol). From what ive read , to get blow back im only going need to use about 1 % – 3 % of the air used to fire the pellet ( info supplied by Bricks20 ) to push back the hammer , so thats the easy part done ………….hehe if only.
So heres my idea ( nothing radical here! ) following the idea of the monsoon with a spring loaded magazine.
Hammer would be released by the trigger , the black spring wire forcing the probe forward and the pellet into the bore. The wire spring would then need to have enough force to keep the probe held in the bore when the valve releases air or id need a locking mechanism to hold the probe shut .The hammer would continue on past the probe onto the valve releasing air.
As the pellet exits the barrel ,air is forced into the blow back valve , driving the hammer back ,which collects the probe , the mag would index and the hammer would lock on the trigger group 😯
Now dont jump on me just yet ,i freely admit its early days and ive got BIG HOLES in my understanding. Im just throwing stuff into the void to see what washes up !!!!!
This post is one thats going to run for a while , i think ! 😀
L8R ALLMarch 3, 2008 at 10:10 pm #35338teflontronParticipant
The funny thing is that the Air Wolf is semi-auto in the fact that it will fire every time you squeeze the trigger, with no cocking needed. The downside being, obviously, that the magazine is still manually rotated via the bolt. I think that a bypass could be made though, although there is a delay between each shot of about half a second.March 3, 2008 at 10:39 pm #35342
The paintball industry went through this many years ago. No body could make a reliable semi auto and look at them now.
I do not know if you are familiar paintball guns, in particular the AUTOCOCKER. The original autococker took a manually pump operated gun and converted it to semi auto by using a small regulator and ram to cycle the gun.
A regulator fine tunes the amount of force needed to just cock the gun and cycle it and I be that a ram and reg would be great addition to a airgun that uses a magazine system.
This guy has been making old school paintball guns converted to semi auto for years. He makes and designs the regulators for them is well know in the pb industry. His regs are also used in fighting robots!March 4, 2008 at 2:26 am #35358jezxParticipant
interesting design . the vertical spring bar (black ) throws me a bit off .? but having the ported barrel to and alternet hammer cocking looks good ,
the cr600 has a desent setup , which if a gun is made with a similar style blow back and a longer prob style bolt like your , it can acheve a good semi auto working . if the probe moves the pellet and seal in side the barrel for 1/2” you get lots of speed befor it kiks the bolt out and loses air power .
it is very hard to make a semi auto , not just the pellet load /fire but the trigger assembly to . i have made 3 with some success , but 2 use balls wich makes it way easy . i have one in the works now that seem like it will be awesome , but the springs /blowback /airpressure / porting, may be completly wrong , you’l never know till its all done .
good luck .March 4, 2008 at 6:48 am #35363
This might simplify the assembly a bit? This was done fast so dont pick at it to much.
Rifle is ready to fire. Bolt is closed and hammer is cocked and ready.
When the gun is fired the lower spring pushes the hammer into the valve which opens and sends the pellet on its way.
Once pressure reaches the bleed line farther up the barrel it pushed the bolt assembly backward and pushes the hammer along with it. This would re cock the gun. It must be enough to compress both upper and lower springs.
When the pressure drops in front of the bolt mech the upper spring pushes the bolt assembly forward leaving the gun cocked and ready.
March 4, 2008 at 1:20 pm #35370
Thanks for the response guys 😀
Now remember im abit of a leech for ideas , so il bleed you lot dry !!! 😀
Im not into paint ball but ive been on plenty of PB sites to gain info and as you say Adam ,auto seems run of the mill now. Im only looking for semi auto as i dont see any need for full auto.
As Jezx says blowback for round ammo is alot easier than pellet guns where the barrel bore has to seal before the pellet exits . It also needs to be more efficient in the use of energy and timing ( the hard part). I dont see the trigger group as a problem , as there are plent of designs out there for the auto powder boys which would work.
The resson i used the wire spring on my design is because its on the monsoon 😉 and being outside the breach it would be easier to adjust the tension than a coil spring! but the design is here to be ripped apart 😀
Shadoh …..if theres one guy with lots of ideas on the TAG …then your the man 😀 .Like your idea lots and im going through the thinking stage of how it could be done (pros and cons……. like life ….hehe ). Spring rates looks like the big thing.
Im going to make an adaptor for my stealth ,to fit on the 1/2 inch UnF thread to see if i can measure the amout of blowback generated……….just asoon as i make a new valve that dont leak ( ….dont ask….. 🙁 ….)
When im at my girlfriends my M/C shop is 10 miles away 🙁 so i need something to play with on the labtop , and designing the next project is it 😀 …….or i have to lisen to how the days shopping /school run went 🙁
… …. Shoot me NOW !!!!!!! PLEASE
L8r all………the sheds callingMarch 4, 2008 at 4:20 pm #35374
You could always use a threaded plug behind the springs to adjust tension. One thing I wonder about is what keeps the bolt from blowing backwards before the pellet gets moving? Do the other guns use the spring tension to accomplish this?March 4, 2008 at 4:32 pm #35375cygnus-x-d82Participant
first of all i would make the piston work on the cocking handle and not the hammer, bit easier to get to work as theres plenty of designs to copy
do you know how the monsoon works ?
it has a shroud, where theres a piston…the over pressure in the shroud pushed the piston back which is connected to the cocking handle….this way power is not wasted by bleeding the barrel.
cocking handle is pushed back and takes the hammer with it….a spring in the shroud brings it piston forward, and a spring in the cocking handle bring it forward too, and slams the breech close….
you press the trigger and everything starts all over…
on the monsoon you dont want the power set too high as this will recock the gun violently leading to failures…but i bet with right spring tensions this could possibly be overcome
on the airforce rifle a cocking system could be made quite easy…by having a shroud that can mode back and fourth same distance, and link it to the breech cocking handle….when the pellet exits the barrel pressure will force shroud forward and pull the cocking handle forward as well…leaving the rifle ready for another pellet, just need to close the breech which would pull the shroud back again…optimal no…but hey its an idea
accuracy would prolly not be the best as the shroud is moving around
indexing the magazine would be easy, by using a self indexing mag like on the monsoon and rapidsMarch 4, 2008 at 5:39 pm #35379
Ooops I forgot to post the link for regualtors and rams..March 4, 2008 at 6:59 pm #35387
Adjusting the springs could be done by the threaded plug as you say Shadoh , its the way my Tv4 copy adjusts the main spring tention. Forgot about this damit 😀
The probe can be held in place by a rotational spring ,it would rotate a pin into a slot to lock the probe into the barrel . Believe the monsoon works by this method. Ive just found the Paint program on my PC lol so im using it at every avaliable oppertunity….hehe!
Have to get my head around the monsoon just to clarrify some isuues , always looked complicated thou 😀 .
Intresting link….. that wouldnt be Walkonking grip conversion on there!!!!!March 5, 2008 at 4:33 am #35416
So the rotational spring would just add a bit more tension on the probe? Then when rear pressure is high enough it totally lets go? I get it.
Cyg, on the drawings above the “probe” would have a cocking handle out the side of it so you could manually cock the gun or the action would do it for you after the shot. I believe what you have described with the monsoon is very similar to what we have drawn above? The only difference being where the air pressure comes from to cycle the action.March 5, 2008 at 6:14 pm #35438
The tricky part of a semi auto is being able to adust the cocking force of the bolt and hammer so it is not to strong. How will you adjust the cocking force?March 6, 2008 at 10:41 am #35479
Thats another reson for the wire spring on my drawings , because as the probe moves forward the force of the wire would act downwards to lock the probe in the “L ” shaped slot. You can see the monsoons probe is divided in two where the end rotates. Think its all about balance of the cocking spring against the hammer spring against the pressure of the blowback valve ……i think!. Im going to make a blowback valve that i can screw onto my Stealth LDC adapter to see how much force is generated but ive got to find the time for a new valve first. Its getting warmer so it wont be long before il want to go shooting 😀 The 1% to 3% needed to have blowback dont seam alot but Bricks 20 knows what hes talking about .The Monsoon,s springs are quite small diameter and long in length. This is the one time i wish i was better at maths but thats not my strong suit. I dont want to copy another gun this time but there all worth studying before i start on CAD. 😀
Naked Monsoon……ohhhh!! 😯April 20, 2008 at 4:40 pm #38079
Anybody out there who can measure the Monsoon mag for me ,need to know how wide it is , so i can find out the stroke of the probe. Having another go at this as my lathes motor give up the fight !. Only lasted 14 months 😯 so im gona moan about it on the suppliers forum!. 😀April 20, 2008 at 6:37 pm #38084ironbradParticipant
take a look at this guy’s full auto monsoon…i’m sure he can give you some insight into this gun:
also, what’s the difference between the Revo and the Monsoon? i ant to buy one of them but I dont know which one I should get.
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