RV1 (or Regulated Valve Mark 1) for AirForce Talon

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  • #273
    mcmike
    Participant

    Hello,

    Looks like some of the discussion came here. So I hope I can get some feedback 🙂

    I have been designing regulated valve for few days. It has evolved couple of steps but there is still some tweaking to be done. I do believe this version is already doable and should work.

    The design is based for Steyr FT regulator which is propably one of the best regs there are currently. There are some good points and some bad points. It’s always a compromise between strength, efficiency, safety, number of shots, manufacturability (huh. is that correct word?) and few other points.

    My main goal has been (in this order perhaps)…

    1. Safety and strength (will compromise size and volume for extra material thickness).

    2. Ease of manufacturing. If I have to make this myself with my limited lathe operating skills it should not have too difficult things or tolerances.

    3. Simplicity. If it’s simple it usually works. This will however compromise some userfriendliness. Meaning that I had to leave regulator pressure adjustment inside the bottle so it’s not possible “on-the-fly” but rather ment to be “factory-setting”. You can use special chamber to setup the gun and leave it there.

    Here’s the pics from 3D-cad. I will make 2D-blueprints after final tweaking and engineering. Do realize that this is just a hobby for me and I don’t plan to make this for sale – so don’t bother to ask. But if someone is interested in making them I can share the drawings ( let’s say that I would love to get free sample for that 😛 )




    The construction may look more complicated than it actually is. I have tried to thought out all manufacturing aspects and avoid anything too complicated. The butt of gun will became little longer (less than inch though). There is still some room for tweaking the size. I believe that the volume could be half the size. For a prototype I wish to leave some room for testing.

    Let’s start from bottle (left).

    There is a bleeding-valve with tiny hole through it. With this valve you can adjust the regulated pressure up to 140 bar maybe more. (factory setting). The air comes from bottle and enters through the piston to regulator-chamber. When it reaches setpressure piston will close Rear sealing and airbleeding will stop. You fire the gun and valvestem moves backwards and air exhaust via highflow nozzle. Pressure will drop in regulator chamber and spring will move piston right opening bleeding valve again.

    I used bellauville springdiscs so that the movement of piston is only approx. 0.2mm. This will save the O-rings. However the stacking of discs will provide more range for moveing. This is because we need some adjustment range for different pressure settings. There is also a venting hole behind spring. If there is small leak over some time period in O-ring the venting still keeps regulator operational.

    The bearing ball in the end is one-way valve for standard refill. You refill the bottle through regulator just like normal bottle. Higher pressure in regchamber will open the valve and fill the bottle. When pressure in bottle raises to fillpressure (- something) it will close again. There is a huge force keeping it closed during normal operation so it will be stuckt in its place and not fiddle around.

    -mcMike

    #23884
    walkonking
    Participant

    Nice design that for sure.

    I have a question. With the output pressure you are looking at what kind of velocity are you hoping for with a .22 pellet?

    Would you plan on putting this on a 4500psi bottle? If you could that would give far more shots then the 3000 and would ideal.

    Does your design have a burst disc or relief valve if the regulator fails?

    Your design shows a lot of ingenuity and it is great to be able to see it from the inside!

    Thanks

    #23889
    mcmike
    Participant

    My main goal is moderate power with consistency. However I believe that with 10+ cm3 regulated chamber size and hiflow valve design it will provide near max power (standard talon).

    Calculations are based as following:

    1cm3 & 100bar = 10J ( 7.5 in king’s domain 😛 )

    We have 140+ bar and 10+ cm3 so if we get even 30-50% efficiency for regulator chamber exhaust it is still quite decent power. Valvestem has longer movement than standard (upto 3-4 mm). Lowpower returnspring and little more mass in tophat makes open-position last longer. Also the bottle pressure is not closing valvestem. And it is always possible to add little extra length for reg chamber.

    Basicly it is possible to use 4500psi bottle since the regulator is not dependent of primary pressure. The construction should be able to handle many times that pressure. So even if regulator breaks (=spring discs break or piston get’s stuck) the regulator chamber will not break. Afterall the refill happens through that same chamber so it HAS to be strong enaugh. And if something fails the 0.2mm hole in bleeding valve is final safety. It will slowdown air bleeding from bottle. Propably will take almost half minute if not longer for whole bottle to empty.

    #23921
    shadoh
    Participant

    Looks great. Gotta love those pics.

    The only thing I see right away is you need to shorten the “piston” length. Im sure it was just an oversight but as its drawn there is no room for it to open.

    Other than that it looks great. If only we could get past the age old O-ring debate in these types of applications. Ive seen them used in many high pressure applications before but eventually they will fail.

    You might add an O-ring to the top hat to get rid of the leaks there that the OEM valves have.

    #23923
    y
    Participant

    Anyone looking into making it similar to the lines of how the USFT works… Higher volume at lower pressures…. like the old big bores.

    USFT type or Regged type.. both beyond my abilities, but the low presure way seems to be the much better method overall compared to regulators…

    #23928
    airgunner
    Participant

    Mike,
    Wonder if you would be able to design a multi-shot version of the Talon/SS/Condor…you are quite good at coming up new designs, I thought I might see if that would be something you could do on your 3D cad as I know A LOT of peeps on here would LOVE it!!!:lol: 😆 😆

    #23930
    mcmike
    Participant
    quote Shadoh:

    Looks great. Gotta love those pics.
    The only thing I see right away is you need to shorten the “piston” length. Im sure it was just an oversight but as its drawn there is no room for it to open.

    Thx. The piston length is ok. The bleeding valve is adjustable. In the pic it’s in the forward position. There is 3mm adjustment for backwards. That is used to select preferred operating pressure.

    quote Shadoh:

    If only we could get past the age old O-ring debate in these types of applications. Ive seen them used in many high pressure applications before but eventually they will fail.

    I don’t understand where that comes from? But then again I am not too familiar with regulator designs. The original Steyr FT has exactly similar design for piston and I haven’t heard that O-rings are the problem with it. The movement for piston is only 0.2 mm or so because of spring discs. So the O-ring is never actually “moving”. It is just rolling a bit in axial direction. In engineer dimensioning that is not counted as a sliding movement-design yet.

    quote Shadoh:

    You might add an O-ring to the top hat to get rid of the leaks there that the OEM valves have.

    There is O-ring in tophat already. Well, not in the hat itself but in valvestem. No need for another or am I missing something?

    #23931
    mcmike
    Participant
    quote Yellow Ninja:

    Anyone looking into making it similar to the lines of how the USFT works… Higher volume at lower pressures…. like the old big bores.

    USFT type or Regged type.. both beyond my abilities, but the low presure way seems to be the much better method overall compared to regulators…

    That is easy.
    Only con is that it will make design longer which I personally don’t prefer.

    As soon as we get some protos and testing there will be quite a lot of finetuning for correct size I hope.

    #23932
    mcmike
    Participant
    quote Airgunner:

    Mike,
    Wonder if you would be able to design a multi-shot version of the Talon/SS/Condor…you are quite good at coming up new designs, I thought I might see if that would be something you could do on your 3D cad as I know A LOT of peeps on here would LOVE it!!!:lol: 😆 😆

    Yeah. I hear you. I have seen dreams of that already 😀 .
    But unfortunately I am not Aimo Lahti even though I live in same country.

    #23952
    shadoh
    Participant
    quote mcMike:

    quote Shadoh:

    If only we could get past the age old O-ring debate in these types of applications. Ive seen them used in many high pressure applications before but eventually they will fail.

    I don’t understand where that comes from? But then again I am not too familiar with regulator designs. The original Steyr FT has exactly similar design for piston and I haven’t heard that O-rings are the problem with it. The movement for piston is only 0.2 mm or so because of spring discs. So the O-ring is never actually “moving”. It is just rolling a bit in axial direction. In engineer dimensioning that is not counted as a sliding movement-design yet.

    quote Shadoh:

    You might add an O-ring to the top hat to get rid of the leaks there that the OEM valves have.

    There is O-ring in tophat already. Well, not in the hat itself but in valvestem. No need for another or am I missing something?

    The O-ring question comes up allot. Ive always wanted to try it in a limited movement application but others feel that an O-ring would be the weak link. Someone usually mentions it at least once when something like this is posted.

    In the top hat. You do show an O-ring in the valve stem but you also get air bleeding past the top hat threads. If you look at the newest valves that Airforce just released even they have added an O-ring under the top hat as well as one on the stem. Custom valve makers have been doing it for a long time already.

    #24147
    mcmike
    Participant

    Hello guys,

    I finalized the design and drawings. Since I don’t have time (nor skills :P) to make this myself I will release the drawings for Public Domain. Thanks to all people in Finnish forum for tips.

    I hope this inspires some of you much more skilled valvedesigners than me and someone actually manufactures it. Propably needs some tweaking for O-ring sizes etc. if you can’t find exactly rings I designed for.

    If you make them for sale it’s ok by me. I would love to receive a sample though 😉

    DISCLAIMER:
    DO REALIZE that it’s 200+ bar pressure you are messing with. I take no responsibility whatsoever if something goes wrong so any use of these drawings is at your own risk. In case that wasn’t clear already 🙂

    #24155
    walkonking
    Participant

    Those drawings are fantastic. I hope the inspire someone to take a look at making one.

    Thank Mike

    #24511
    buba-b
    Participant

    Only just found these, looks the best thought out reg valve by far ive seen (is Marv on the case ? ) right wheres my shed……i may be gone a while gentlemen 😀

    #24570
    mcmike
    Participant
    quote Buba b:

    Only just found these, looks the best thought out reg valve by far ive seen (is Marv on the case ? ) right wheres my shed……i may be gone a while gentlemen 😀

    Thanks.
    It has evolved few steps with the help and tips of people on our local Finnish forum and also people here and TOG. The consept has proven to work. Couple of Finnish people have already made similar regulator but for a different gun.

    And yes. Marv is on the case. Haven’t heard of him for a while but I think he is designing his own improved version. Propably something special for his big bore monster 😀

    #158520
    bountyhunter
    Participant

    … in the design. Has anything been done with this? Especially anything that can work with a Condor?

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