Multi calibre Condor’s
Hey guys anyone running .177 cal barrels in there condor? I had an old beat up Gamo in .177 with an 18″ barrel, the piston seal and trigger have been stuffed for years now. I had been thinking about it for a while and finally pulled the barrel off and machined it and some bushings to fit into the condor. Preliminary chrony results for an 18″ barrell are inpressive. A PW setting of 0 gives 800fps and PW of 4 gives 950fps. even got to 1250 fps on PW12! 8 gr RWS superpoints for first 2 and RWS Musterclugen match for 1250fps. I then tried Gamo PBA and got 2 shots of 1404 and 1409 FPS !
Now if my guestamation of an extra 50FPS per 2″ of barrel re correct we could see 1500 to 1600 FPS in a condor .177 !
Not that youd wanna shoot it at that speed, the pellets would be all over the place !
The question i have is will a 26″ or longer barrel generate higher velocity’s in any given calibre compared to a 24″? If so has anyone done it? Lother only produce 24″ barrel’s. Would a .22 rimfire Barrel work with pellets? I am toying with the idea of getting a 26″ or longer rimfire barrel to see what kinda velocity’s i can get. Also it would give me the opertunity to shoot jacketed .22 bullets. There is a huge range from 30gr to 55gr.
Any thoughts?
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Hey, anything’s possible :-)! I’ve heard of people running pure helium in their PCP’s, from a safety standpoint it’s a non-issue. Like the nitrogen I feed my Talons, it’s inert. I’ve also heard it does result in some impressive velocity increases. The biggest complaint I’ve heard is that you can’t keep it in your gun! The helium molecule is so damn small that it can leak right through most sealing material. Who wants to deal with that? One of the things I love about my Talons is I can grab it and go, as long as I didn’t forget to fill it after my last shooting session I know it will still have air in it. All that said, you may have come up with the rest of the answer for creating a truly high velocity air rifle. I don’t know the physics involved, but maybe the combination of .22 LR barrel and helium COULD give you a 2000 fps air rifle. Sure would be fun to find out, wouldn’t it? Later.
Dave
your very correct in your statement dave. Head shoot a rabbit and yes he falls over dead, but heart lung shoot a rabbit and he will move just enough sometimes to get back into the burrow and dissapear. Had one on Sunday thought i’d clean missed at 50 yards, saw pellet strike behind the rabbit only for him to run a round a few times and fall over dead, just inside the burrow i might add, heart lung shot. heart lung shoot a rabbit with a .22 LR and he wont move no where near as much, the .22 LR creates a massive shock to the target which some say kills the animal more than the physical wound. By exiting the body of a small animal the air rifle pellet does not impact all its energy to the animal. If it stays inside the carcass it will transfer 100% of the energy, or at the least create a much bigger wound channel due to the expansion of the bullet.
Any of that make sense? I have used a .177 RWS 52 for years and it now with a tune gives me a solid 950 FPS with RWS superpoints. Shoot a rabbit in the heart lung with that and it will just run away and die. Used to annoy the crap outta me. One i dont want the animal to suffer unduly and second i want to claim what i shoot. .177 are not very good for hunting in my limited experience. The condor in .22 gives much better results even at the same velocity with heavier slugs.
The idea for a high velocity air rifle is sorta the same as powder burners. Why settle for eun jins at 1000FPS when you could theoreticaly shoot 25 gr bullets at 1400+ FPS?? Hollow point bullets that will expand correctly in a rabbit or crow sized animal or bird. Thats why they have 220 swifts shooting 40gr bullets at 4000+ FPS. It just makes for a harder hitting flatter shooting rifle. In other countries it could be a problem as the air rifle will clearly become as powerfull as a powder burner, but here in Oz, it makes no difference, we need to have a license and register even the puniest bb gun. Would be good to have an air rifle that could match a HMR or something, you wouldnt need to clean it no where near as often and also the ammo would be cheaper as your only using the bullet.
I read somewhere a guy ran a Daystate MK3 with half helium and his velocity went from 300 FPS to 1000 FPS. I am not condoning helium as i have no idea the risks involved and nor would i use it unless i new for a fact it wouldnt damage the gun or me ! But makes ya think, if it was safe to use and it yeilded 3 times the velocity, i think Helium expands at 3600 FPS.. wouldnt that be something ! A 2000 to 3000 FPS air rifle !! 😯
Nah it just couldnt be done… could it????? 😕
A question and some observations regarding the issue of “over penetration”. The question is, how many critters have gotten up and walked away after you shot through them? I recently shot a 10 or 12 pound ground hog with a .177 TSS with 18″ barrel, CPL at about 940 fps, 20 yard shot. Pellet went in just under the right ear and exited just under the left. He kicked a bit, but never moved from where he fell. And all of the smaller game I shoot are through and throughs, regardless of whether I’m shooting a .177, .20, or .22. Ever hear of J.P. Shelton? He’s a California guy that’s been hunting with air guns for years, mostly R-7’s and R-9’s, primarily in .177. His opinion boils down to the whole idea of “over penetration” being a myth. I know several other people that hunt a lot with air guns, and the consensus seems to be that a solid head shot or heart/lung body shot=dead critter, pass through or not. Ever shoot an aluminum can full of liquid? Oddly enough, the ENTRY side splits wide open, with just a pellet sized exit hole. Hope I didn’t step on any toes, but I felt it was a point that needed making. Later.
Dave
muzza im thinking i may want to upgrade barrels so i can shoot those daystate .223, but wasnt sure if id be able to find any ready to drop in barrels, but i think that would be ideal for varmits if i can get the hollow point going fast enough to do what its suppose to do
Yeah lonegun 80 Metre shots are quite capable with a stock condor, i do that now, the only problem with 100 Metre plus shots is the wind. If it is a little windy then the chances of hitting a rabbit size target drop. The power at 100 Yrds is still around 30FP so heaps of power to down a rabbit. Just accuracy issues. Pellets were never designed for 100 metre shooting.
A boat tail bullet wether cast lead or jacketed would retain velocity better at longer ranges, ie 100Yrd +. I think that would be a big plus to be able to group under 1″ @ 100 YRDS would be unheard of from an air gun. With the right twist rate barrel and around 1300 FPS in a 20 gr .17 or .20 bullet it is quite possible.
The only other issue i have from using the stock Condor is the over penetration you get using the Eun jins and kodiaks. At 80 metres i have had the Eun jins pass clean through a rabbit. The problem there is if it does that then all that power is wasted. My theory is that at higher velocities we can get better expansion from pellets. But there in lies the catch, at high velocity’s above 1200 FPS pellets wont shoot accurately, Bullets will. There are quite a few what they call explosive tip, or hollow point bullets that will still expand at around the 1000 FPS mark. A lead hollow point bullet will explode at those velocities therefore making a very efficient taker of small game. I think with one of Seans vlaves and some other mods we could easily achieve the 1300 FPS mark in a 20 Gr bullet, maybe 1400 FPS. I’m guessing a 26″ barrel in .17 would be ideal, only problem is getting a twist rate to suite. Its gonna need around a 1-8 twist rate to properly stabalize the bullets at 1200 FPS . Where do i get my hands on one of them without blowing a massive hole in the bugdet. I was even thinking today burnt out centrefire barrels would probably still work well once the throat is cut and machined off?
Sorry, Muzza, that was a 24″ .22 barrel, I usually specify that, must have been a brain fart :-)! Blodnob is one of the forum members from England, does really nice machine work, some kick ass valves are only some of what he does. I think work and family have him swamped for now, it may be awhile before he’s making any more valves. It’s worth the wait, though.
These rifles have plenty of power, like I said, ammo is the main bottle neck at the moment. That, and the fact that the .22 air rifle isn’t the same as the .22 the powder burners shoot. So you’re right, a .22 rimfire blank machined to fit the Air Force guns would be just the ticket. Since you already have a .223, it would make sense to use a barrel that fits the same bullets. I’ve been toying with the same idea, if you do decide to machine a barrel, do two, I’d buy one for my own testing. I suspect bullet selection would be critical, and for some reason, I feel that jacketed bullets may not be the answer. But damn if it wouldn’t be fun to find out! Keep me posted.
Dave
Once that stage is reached we will have to use .22 Rimfire barrels and shoot jackated bullets upto 50+ Gr .. 1200FPS with a 50Gr bullet should yield 159 FP.. well over the .22 LR. Something of that power would make a 100 to 150 yard air rifle. Now thats somethin i would pay good money for !
my stock ss is taking out jack rabbits to 80 yards with eunjins, my hunting buddy constantly makes 130 yard kills with his stock talon using eunjins, im not bragging just stating that these rifles are already 100 plus yard rifles
Thanks for the post Dave. Are you telling me you can get 1400 FPS in a 12″ barrel? With a bloodknob valve?? Where can i get one !!! 😯
I am toying with the idea of machining a .22 rimfire barrel for my condor, i see several for sale from as little as $29.95 for a stainless 24″ blank to a 33″ hexagonal .22 rimfire for about $140. If you can achieve those velocities with 28gr pellets and a 12″ barrel.. then it should be possible to push 40 and 45 Gr bullets at 1100 to 1200 FPS?? The twist rate of a rimfire is for a 40gr bullet at between 1100 to 1300 FPS, So accuracy should be good. What else have you done to your gun? Is it just the valve? There may be better results from using a .17 or .20 calibre barrel if you can get 1400FPS with the 20 and 25gr .17 and .20 cal bullets then the longe range potential should be fantastic. I wouldnt use pellets, but shoot bullets, preferably boat tail,to extend the range out to 100+ metres reliably.. and that my freind is all i need.. for longer shots i’ll use the .223.. 😀
This has got me very excited.. could we really push 20 gr bullets past 1400 FPS?? What wuld the shot count be like though?
Muzza, the air isn’t traveling, it’s expanding. Velocity comes from the 3000 psi air in the tank being released and allowed to expand in a confined space behind the pellet. The reason longer barrels produce more power with PCP’s is that you can dump more air, thus accelerating the pellet the full length of the barrel.
I’m sure there’s both a theoretical as well as practical limit. I don’t know what the theoretic limit is, but I suspect the practical limit would be at least partly subjective. How long is too long for good balance and shootability? Personally, the 24″ AF barrels are about as long as I like, and they’re too long in some cases. For starling whacking out the window of my car or truck, the 6″ shorter TSS or Talon is much better, and with the 18″ barrel in either, you’re not giving up that much power.
Regarding your 40 gr. 1000 fps Condor, the current limit is ammo, not gun. I’ve got a Blodnob valve for one of my TSS’s, and just for grins, decided to see just how fast I could go. With everything maxed out, I was able to push several 28 gr. Eun Jins in excess of 1400 fps. That’s over 120 fpe, which is definitely rimfire territory. Our main limit is the diabolo pellet design, it’s meant to be a low speed projectile that relies on drag to stabilize it. Think badminton birdie :-). The ONLY way we’re going to see reliable, accurate high velocity air rifles will be from a new pellet design, or barrels that can use .22 center fire bullets. Of course, then the question becomes, just because we CAN do it, does that mean we SHOULD do it? You can drive screws with a hammer, but does that make a hammer the best tool for driving screws :-)? Or to put it another way, why does anyone NEED a 100+ fpe air rifle? Gee, guess I got long winded, sorry people, I’m going away now. Later.
Dave
theoritically that should be possible. I have rad and seen in the big bore web sites DAQ’s pushing 275 gr bullets in .375 at 750 FPS. The only issue i have there is a .30 calibre 200gr bullet will be useless against small game like rabbits. A .22 or .25 is more suitable.
What i’d love to know is the mechanics involved in the pushing of ultra high velocity’s. Why can we achieve these 1200 + FPS in air rifles when the air doesnt travel faster than the speed of sound ie 1080 FPS? If there is another force in play, heat or expansion giving the extra speed, how can we maximise it to make an exteme condor that can push 40Gr bullets over 1000 FPS? I for one would love one. I’d sell my rimfire tommorow. Not that it see’s any use since i got condor..
One of the most effecient uses of subsonic velocity I’ve seen is in a powder cartrige years back. a 30cal designed to shoot in an m-16 with stock mechanism, only a top end/barrel change. called a .300 whisper, it fired a .308 bullet of 220 grains at 1050 fps with 1moa or better accuracy (538 ftlbs) which is roughly equivilant to the 45acp pistol cartrige in muzzle energy. That in itself is not all that impressive; but at 100 yd, the 45 pistol round has LOST over 50% of its initial energy and the 300 whisper RETAINED 90% of its initial energy due to the high BC of the super long 30 cal bullet.
Example:
ftlb energy Muzzle 100yd
.300 whisper 538 484 90% retained
45 acp 538 269 50% retained
I think an airgun of midbore caliber with a heavy projectile of high BC should be much more attainable than trying to push velocity to the absolute maximum. A project I intend to mess with when I get my lathe and mill setup.
Yeah. I think the issue is that it’s a big jump. You can not shoot the diabolo pellets faster than 1000 or so, but you can the full size bullets. Only problem there is that the full size bullets would take a good bit more air to spit out than the lighter pellets are.
Still, it’d be really cool. 🙂
No problem here mate, in Australia air rifles no matter how low powered are considered firearms.
I read about these big bore air rifles, like the 201 career shooting 9mm pellets of 77 gr at 900FPS.. It makes me wonder what the practical limit of a PCP air rifle is.. someone once wrote that air travels at the speed of sound 1080FPS so theoreticaly we should never see speeds over that, yet i have seen 1200FPS in my .22 condor and 1400FPS in the same gun with a .177 barrel. Can we get even faster velocity’s?? i read an article where Daystate are aiming for 1700FPS in .22 in the air ranger.. Is it possible? Once that stage is reached we will have to use .22 Rimfire barrels and shoot jackated bullets upto 50+ Gr .. 1200FPS with a 50Gr bullet should yield 159 FP.. well over the .22 LR. Something of that power would make a 100 to 150 yard air rifle. Now thats somethin i would pay good money for !
Yeah, but you know what scares me? We may end up being our own worst enemy. We get too much of a good thing (power) and the next thing someone passes a law that puts us in the same class as firearms.
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Exactly mate, its all a bit of fun. As long as no one gets hurt its fine. I will check up on the Helium through our gas supplier, Its not exactly cheap i know, but i have used those little bottles to fill balloons for parties before. It should be as straight forward as filling with air or N2 just need different fitting obviuosly for the tank. Perhaps a mix of helium and Nitrogen would be better for sealing? I will find that out and wether there are any dangers of explosion and death or injury before i even contemplate it. If there is an issue with leaking, then it will be a fill and shoot senario. I wouldnt mind too much if spotlighting as the tank can be stored in the car as we drive around and just keep re filling as needed. Not like i’d use Helium everyday. HP air is fine for 95% of all my shooting, but just would be cool to have that little extra available if needed. I might try a bloodnob valve for a start and stick with HPA as i think we could get 1400 to 1500 FPS with bullets of 25 gr. If that is do able then that might be the end of it, that type of velocity would be a real effective 150 yard air rifle, thats .22 rimfire magnum territory, not just .22 LR. Bullets are easily sourced, the valve and Hammer can be obtained, now i gotta find the most important thing of all.. the CASH ! 🙁
I suspect there would be alot of people who would pay good money for a drop in conversion like i have described. Change the valve, hammer mod and barrel and you have the extreme condor. These guns are so good you can add stuff like i have mentioned and if you dont like it, put the original stuff back in. Awsome work Air force, take my hat off to ya.