Condor spring forces?
Hello,
What is the force of Condor valve return spring?
Is it stronger or weaker than in Talon and SS ?
I just disasembled standard Talon valve and the spring feels really strong. Must be way over 50N if not 100N. This leads to another question; What is the main reason for valve-dump? I mean what actually happens in the gun when you shoot for example with too low pressure and it dumps the tank?
Is there too much counter pressure in the barrel during firing cycle which prevents the tank pressure for closing the valve or what?
Thanks.
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Viewing 8 replies - 1 through 8 (of 8 total)
What is the force of Condor valve return spring?
Is it stronger or weaker than in Talon and SS ?
I just disasembled standard Talon valve and the spring feels really strong. Must be way over 50N if not 100N. This leads to another question; What is the main reason for valve-dump? I mean what actually happens in the gun when you shoot for example with too low pressure and it dumps the tank?
Is there too much counter pressure in the barrel during firing cycle which prevents the tank pressure for closing the valve or what?
Thanks.
Mike, if that force is there then if you have 3000psi on your fill guage and the valve sealing diameter is 0.250″ then the tank will get 2600psi fill
What size is the Condor valve sealing diameter?
Valve dump occurs when the sum of the closing forces is less than the sum of the opening fores.
pressure on the valve stem, tophat, barrel breech oppose the valve closing
flow past the valve head, flowing friction in the stem plus the valve spring work to close the valve.
When the pressure gets low the hold open forces must be greater than the closing force with a reduced valve spring setting and the outlet orifice (barrel bore) is smaller and not venting off the breech slide pressure.
Valve stays open and gun dumps.
Walter…..
Mike on the Talon valves i mod and bore out, i find it necessary to move the tophat back as to much air is wasted and the string is erratic. Lastone i did was set to .058 . From my mind i don’t think the tophat distance plays a role. If it can dump at .070 it should dump as well at .035. I could be technicaly wrong, but it would only be by a few lbs.
You have the hammer spring 20lb under full load and a 45-75g hammer, ? gram brech to overcome. I’d error on th eside of caution and not go to lite, but it doesn’t take much to keep the valve closed.
Good luck on the valve.
Condors have a stronger spring than the Talons.
Thanks.
Is it so that std Talon/SS don’t have dump issues? Only condor because of much bigger bore size and weaker spring? This would make sense.
I just measured Talon spring and it was 100N which seems VERY strong.
Wouldn’t the dumping also be solved if you limit the valve-stroke with tophat or o-ring under it? So it only moves 1-2mm.
The reason I am asking is because I try to build my own valve with littler bigger exhaust bore (5.5mm) so it could operate near 100bar with regulated pressure. A friend who has condor can shoot fullpower shots still with 80 bar so I assume the condor valve can exhaust required amount of air (0.5 litres NTP / shot) with that low pressure.
Tony; Thanks for the spring offer. I have some springs but if they don’t work I’ll get back to you 🙂
To overcome this “Valve dumping” only a light spring is needed. Slightly heavier than the hammer spring on max pre load + hammer weight. I use a spring which is about half the compressive lbs. and i’ve never dumped my valve. Believe i could go lighter, no real reason to though. A lighter valve spring allows for easier opening of the valve, thus a lighter hammer/stock can be used. I have yet to play with a condors valve, the talons Spring is plenty stout a lighter one is definately a plus.
MC, your correct on the valve dump issue its all in the numbers/lbs. The thing is, its not like the heavy spring adds a curve to the string or anything even close. At a 3000psi fill i get a low shot or 2 and then its full power and down from there as slowly as possible. I’ve been thinking ultra light hammer, valve spring, modded valve and see if i can get a decent curve going without sacrificeing power. I’ll post on this over the winter.
Way I understand it (and this may be wrong). Is that the 3000 psi in the tank is more than enough to close the tank on its own, Once the pressure starts going down then the hammer strikes push the valve in further as the pressure from the tank produce less resistance to opening and at the same time less of a closing force.
Once you get to a certain point pressure wise then the pressure is so low that the valve opens enough for the pressure going past the seal to overpower the spring and the pressure that wants to close the valve keeping it open and dumping the air out of it.
Thats is what I would say.
The counter pressure of the hammer spring plus the load of the hammer and breech does not allow the valve seat to set when tank pressure is low. Exhausting the tank.
I have lighter valve return springs, PM your address and I will send you a couple.
Tony
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edit: Friday morning brainfart so removed whole reply …