February 7, 2014 at 4:26 pm #194434pandemicParticipant
lol i moved it and added the new forum since it is a new gun no matter how stupid of an idea it wasFebruary 7, 2014 at 4:48 pm #194436quote roachcreek:
Somebody recently posted a fairly long list of examples of just that. You know damn well a few folks will see it as a challenge and in six months, well engineered mods will start smoothing out what is really an extension of the TalonP. From one point of view, it’s a pretty capable R&D lab on the cheap.
Hell. I’m thinking a chambered valve and a regulated backpack remote tank would be a gamechanger here. Think paintball.
JohnFebruary 7, 2014 at 10:10 pm #194463roachcreekParticipant
Lead does not even come close to melting at 11000 to 1200 FPS. Speed is not the dynamics that causes lead melting in the bore.
Blow by gas escaping around the bullet in the bore is what melts the lead and in turn deposits it on the bore, which is only present in firearms. The leading that we airgunners get is from transfer leading, meaning what you would get if you took that pellet and rubbed it on a piece of steel.
Elmer Keith and Phil Sharp in the late 20’s and 30’s were routinely taking the fledgling 44 magnum and 357 magnum to 1500 FPS with plain based bullets, and gave those cartridges their fame and revealed their performance levels to come for close to 6 decades before even heavier frames and newer powders for the cartridges took them even further.
Lymans reloading manual for cast bullets put a ceiling at around 2200 FPS for Cast bullets. basically any old cartridge that got 2000 FPS can be reproduced with cast bullets. I have personally taken elk with cast bullets at 1800 FPS.
The subsonnic forces that play on a bullet or pellet at around 1120 to 1130 FPS, depending on elevation and humidity, do not come into play until the bullet passes back down thru the subsonic level as it’s velocity decays, a prime example of that is the US military M80 round, using what you refer to as a FMJ bullet that was the mainstay for the US forces, using a 7.62 boattail 147 grain bullet, which at around 660 yards displays subsonic forces at work as it loses its accuracy level as it passes through subsonnic. When you use a heavier bullet for that cartridge like a 190 grain boattail with a better BC it pushes the accuracy potential much further.
If you take a naked bullet, meaning a lead bullet, push it far enough above transonnic velocity, meaning 1120 FPS and your target is close enough that the bullet hits it before it passes down through 1120 FPS you will not experience a accuracy decay. This is fine for firearms, but for air guns it is a big problem because we can’t really get that far past 1120 FPS with diablo pellets, which are designed to create drag and slow them down like a badmitten bird.
Cast bullets in air guns have the potential to take that a little further, I say “potential” because as of now our power plants do not have the ability to do so. That leaves long range cast bullet airgunners with the only route being to use the heaviest bullet with the highest BC that will do as close to 1120 FPS. With the 257 bore, I found that to limit 12 oz cola can type accuracy at just past 600 yards.
Yes, no one knows it all, so you can only read the works of the early ballistic pioneers like Mann, Keith and Sharp and spend a lifetime duplicating their experiments and learn for yourself, unfortunately most of what you read on air gun forums relating to internal and external ballistics is bullshit with the exceptions of the writings of a select few. The task for tyro’s such as yourself is to try and dig through the bullshit to the truth, unfortunately you will find few tools to do so on air gun forums.
Now about AirForce using this forum as a R&D lab, their time would be better spent dong so rather than relying on the advice of a few morons, some who write blogs to sell their “new innovations” and others who do reality shows about storage bins for their R&D. But assembling bastardized guns from spare parts laying around seems to be a more prudent path for them. The best things stolen here so far have been WOK butt knockoffs, ETACS and the Condor SS with it’s extended frame, they really need to examine Dyotats valve work more closely.February 7, 2014 at 10:45 pm #194472quote roachcreek:
They bevelled the valve poppet. That’s kinda innovative if you don’t think on it too much. My stepdad built muzzle loaders that were pure art. Truly amazing. He spent decades experimenting with cast ammo. By the time I had time to learn, he was too old to pass it on. Crying shame all that was lost.
JohnFebruary 8, 2014 at 1:10 am #194483macguyverParticipant
Roachcreek, I tip my hat, just had to stand up for myself as I felt you were picking on the new guy. As far as being a beginner….Hmmmmm I would say I am advanced in my shooting skills and know enough to do my research and at least ask if I do not know, not act like I do.
Matter of fact I have been I lurking here for a couple years.. and posting @ the GTA since 09′ only 30 years old but have owned some type of airgun all my life. and IF my memory is correct you are the one you made your own condor ss years ago…Before Airforce, who stole your idea? 😯
I actually plan to purchase a .25 condor SS in the future.. Currently I am content with my .22 Marauder that I have owned since 2010 with a longest confirmed kill of 131 yards on a crow and 18.1 JSB shooting 32fpe @ the muzzle for 30 shots.
But back to what you were saying thanks for the information, Maybe they should copy the Talondor .257 idea from you guys next? haha.. maybe cast bullet are what this “Escape” should be shooting at that fpe instead of pellets..February 8, 2014 at 1:49 am #194486tagdaggerParticipant
What is an HO valve? Am I missing something obvious? Doug is right about the TalonP valve seat. Its works well in a stock hiflo , moves a lot of air and is very dump resistant.February 8, 2014 at 4:13 am #194504mawParticipant
It’s like Angelina Jolie’s lips… BIGFebruary 9, 2014 at 2:09 am #194594quote maw:
Wait a minute. You saying this new HO valve is funny looking and kinda creepy?February 9, 2014 at 6:10 am #194603knifemakerParticipant
RC has been shooting cast bullets that he alloys and cast himself and testing for many years. Including winning several championships for long range with them. He has taken more heads of large game with cast bullets than the average person could count.
Not to mention his pioneering the .257 for AirGun use. When he speaks, I listen!
KnifeMakerJune 17, 2014 at 4:03 pm #204940francusParticipantquote roachcreek:
I did not understood all you wrote, but seems very interesting. May you suggest some text about casting pellets? I had little experience about casting, but learn fast.
BestJanuary 3, 2015 at 10:20 pm #216500stealth85ParticipantJanuary 22, 2015 at 4:59 pm #217737stealth85Participant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW1Gb8wRc8o Escape crono test
932 – 903 – 880 – Error – 852 – 840 – 827 – 803 – 777 – 770 – 745 – Error with 42 grainMay 29, 2015 at 7:07 pm #227546kinokoParticipant
im now confused reading all these. what would u guys suggest for my next af gun? ive been hunting with condor .25. all i need is power around 60fpe range, most probably only need 5 shots and more importantly, compact and light. i can hike up for hours and hours often the whole night just to spot 1 or 2 boars. we often dont have the leisure of walking on flat plain, mostly 40deg up terrain. what do u guys think?
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